Projects for training skills


#1

I think it would be nice if there was an option to start a project “training” which would be designed to train skills. Say “mining training”. The project would produce no resources, but during every tick would develop the skill which it is training.
In this way it would be possible for guards to train fighting, without the gruesome hunting on animals or slashing each other. Or guile. Now it’s pretty popular for children to play “whispering game”, which again, pretty much boils down to being desperate enough to just click enough many times.


#2

A standard training project would turn fighting and guile skills into no-brainer skills. Fighting skills and guile stand out a.t.m. as harder to train, (usually) needing interaction with other chars and needing some degree of organisation/planning. Let’s keep it that way, training production skills is enough endless routine.


#3

Well, I am not suggesting replacing the current system with the training skills projects. I mean using it as an addition. For example I as a player don’t really get anything from just clicking “attack ,confirm, attack, confirm” and hunting god knows how many animals every hour. So I’d love to have an alternative in form of a training project, especially that I am one of those people with very limited amount of time I can spend on playing, so I’d rather utilize it on RPing rather than clicking.

So in this way players who have lots of time and dedication would get a buff, because they could train the skill faster: both by project skills and by grinding, but at least the others could also get a chunk from this pie.

Edit: Plus it would be a nice way to get rid of the workaround people use to training kids, where they for example endlessly assemble and disassemble things, which only purpose is letting them develop their skill really.

Edit2: One more thing that comes to my mind: It would be way cooler from the RP point of view to have a guard who spends his time training fighting instead of say gathering onions.


#4

Maybe by using some expendable resource, like using wood and “material” to create a Mu ren zhuang, then expending the dummy into a training project that will last a variable amount of time. The dummy lasting longer depending on the manufacturing skill of the carpenter.


#5

I mean, I like the ideas.

All that really comes to mind would be:

  1. A usable “Training dummy” that can be crafted and gets dispensed after use.
  2. You and an adult starting a training project together.

These points are already done RP wise, but would be cool mechanic additions.


#6

Training dummys remove the risk that is supposed to be present when training combat. The point of it is that you cannot train for hours on end because you need to make sure your partners have enough health, and that you have enough partners to do continuous sparring. It is supposed to be harder than just joining a project.

I would even say making it a project is even less conducive to RP because you are not required to interact with another person, and since there would be much less cost to training it would suddenly become very easy to level fighting skills - which I do not want.

If you want to be able to train fighting you have to be dedicated to doing so (or alternatively, group up because of safety in numbers). Adding an automated way of training removes the need for that dedication/interaction, and makes characters who are good at fighting less special. Eventually everyone would be pretty good, and since skills are inherited, that’d become OP pretty quickly.

Guile is also supposed to be purposely difficult to level for anyone below level 2 (after which they can start lockpicking projects), and all other skills aside from these already have project variants for training.


#7

Also, during such project nothing would get produced, so it’s not like everyone could afford to train it all the time. Actually having a guard would mean that the entire town would pretty much have to work to supply them.

What I really disagree with is that we measure how hard a skill is to train by the number of clicks required, because that’s what it really boils down to. I’d argue that we could make the training project giving you less experience per hour, or even affect your health as well. Like you’d need two adults to join the project and both of them would get their health dropped every hour. I just would love to see whatever that allows to escape the click click click thing.

It’s even more accurate when it comes to guile. It’s enough to group up in three players, whisper to each other and try to eavesdrop. Again, one needs to be just devoted enough to -clicking-.


#8

But it isn’t measured as hard by how many clicks are done. It’s measured as hard by how much damage you can do to another character without hurting them permanently and then having to wait before trying so again, especially that when they hit you back you counter attack and its double the attack. It’s a measurement of being able to coordinate interactions with other players, and yes, you need to be active for that.

As for the animal side of training, that is one of the upsides of not having a wall and choosing not to tame them, they are able to be used for combat and short lived. Most of the time you only get a couple of hits, and people often will run out of animals to train with entirely, forcing them to go back to sparring groups and again dealing with health being a primary factor in making you wait to train.

If your aim is to solve the problem of more active players having an advantage in training combat, even if you came up with a training method that somehow emulated characters keeping track of health and waiting properly so they don’t hurt each other (which will just end up in missed ticks anyways because I’d have to automatically force the characters to stop working on the project at a certain health point), it still removes the need to interact with others in order to train a stat that is purposely difficult - and in the end, more active characters during combat will still have the advantage anyways. It’ll just be slightly reduced in terms of skill gain.

It would also allow people who run off by themselves to train endlessly on their own without anyone knowing it, without any RP, not to mention further kill any desire to roleplay when you’re training in big cities. When people just have long projects they tend to just sleep. At least if they have to actively click something, others know they are awake and have something to react to. Changing this would not be good for roleplay.

Guile is a separate skill that doesn’t have anything to do with this suggestion, but eavesdropping is a purposeful barrier to entry, as only Sanguines have a natural ability to avoid the need to eavesdrop in order to train once they are adults since they can practice with lockpicking. So again, this is on purpose. If you want to be a thief you have to either be a Sanguine or be really active/dedicated to the idea of that role, and that is intended.


#9

Quick maths:
6048 per level, 6 exp points per attack/eavsdrop. meaning that you need over 1k clicks to level up. You need to be dedicated to click 1k times. For me it doesn’t boil down to interaction with other players, to rping, to coordinating it. It just boils down to clicking.

Well it’s not like my aim is to solve the problem of more active players having an advantage. Game should be fun. Having to click 1k times is all but fun. Can you even actually imagine roleplaying hitting someone 1k times? That’s not fun either. (and it’s just to gain one level up!)

So yes, I agree that if someone wants to be a thief/soldier, then the -char- should be dedicated to it. But in this way we’re forcing the players to be dedicated to it, and it’s a bit different. For me personally it’s just a fun killer.


#10

That math you have there is for a level 1 knowledge adult, who is supposed to suck on purpose. Not everyone has that set up, so the number of times to hit actually varies quite greatly.

Well the fun comes from the RP, Alutka, not the projects or the clicking. Both of those are irrelevant to the roleplay that is supposed to come with these actions, and I argue that requiring more interaction than joining a project is more conducive to roleplay because it offers more opportunities for reaction from others; hence, more fun.

If you are just clicking and not roleplaying anything about it, of course it’s not going to be fun. Seems like a play style issue to me, not a game design issue. If you do not like roleplaying training sessions and sparring then maybe a guard role is not one you actually enjoy.

Even putting play style issues aside, there are still inherent problems that have been pointed out in this suggestion that have still not been solved. Even if I agreed with you, the suggestion would create mechanical imbalances that would not be good for the game. Requiring the project to have at least two people and incurring damage still does not address the issue of the fact you will end up getting kicked off if your health is too low. People will miss ticks, and many could argue that is way worse than being able to practice training when you actually want to, and then decide to put your character on a long project which trains strength while you sleep for example.


#11

Well alright, but most characters do have knowledge on level 1. If you spawn as an ordinary char, then you’ll spend quite some time to even lift it to level 3. And even then you still need 750 clicks, which doesn’t seem much better really.

And there’s a difference between enjoying RPing sparring, and between having to do it a few times per day in order to level up. Again, I have no idea how much I’d have to enjoy something to find it fun to do it so many times, over and over again.

Well yeah, my original suggestion was to make a project which will train the skill. If the argument is that it should be somehow harder skill than the others, then it could be made in such a way that you only gain say half of the experience.

But yeah, at this point I see that we’ll have to agree to disagree. Maybe that’s because I’m more used to live RPG sessions, where you don’t have to grind any skill like that, and yeah, what I’m looking for is to have fun through RPing and the mechanics being an addition, while in this case for me it feels like it’s the other way around.


#12

We can agree that not having to do it as often would be ideal, but consistency and balance is more important to me than convenience, and that is how it worked out math wise based on the current spectrum of exp raising stats. I am not willing to make that compromise, especially when all this would achieve is addressing one version of fun with that role (which not everyone may even agree with), in which it is less desirable to have to click a button a few times in addition to your roleplay posts.

Lots of people seem to still have fun while training and roleplaying based on the current mechanics. It does require a lot of hits, but the fact is that skill is different than the others. Being strong in combat is more powerful as an influence in roleplay than being good at smithing, but I don’t think it should mean their exp rates should differ - and even if it did, that would mean replacing the current system entirely, because then we would be totally punishing the current system of combat with lowered exp (requiring even more than 1000 hits), and invalidating it compared to a project based method (which we do not have a working model of that addresses the missing ticks issue anyways).

So yes we do have to agree to disagree on approach when it comes to combat training design, at least based on the current points in the thread so far. I would be open to having some way of training that is more passive if it did not cause a bunch of balance and mechanical issues - but it does, so I am picking what I think is the lesser of two evils here.

And I don’t know what you mean by your last statement - grinding is grinding whether it’s clicking a button or joining a project. From my understanding, you just want a more efficient and convenient way of doing so. Cantr also took forever to level combat, and was not live RP, so I am not sure what comparison you are making because there was definitely grinding there too.


#13

Oh, I wasn’t referring Cantr. By live RPG I mean you know, the ones with game master, dice and beer :slight_smile: